Rep. Talarico asks questions of Rep. Noble on the layout of SB 10, Ten Commandments in classrooms
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Representative Noble. I agree it's late."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I know it's early."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"It is very early. That's right. So I have lots of questions, but I am going to try to limit them given the hour. I want to get back to this idea about the Ten Commandments being foundational because I know that's kind of the the argument that you're making for the bill. And I think if I'm remembering it correctly, we talked about this two years ago and you were saying that the Ten Commandments is foundational to our country's body of law or judicial system because it was also foundational to the English common law that it stretches all the way back to that."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I don't think I ever said that."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Okay. So tell me more about what it is foundational tube."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Again, I wish y'all would let me my friends come and speak that have waited all day to do that and then we can circle back to these questions if that would be okay with you. I would prefer that because they are actually experts in this field and I am not."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"And I understand that now and we may ask questions of them. It's just you're the elected official who's bringing it. So that's why I want to make sure we in a public platform."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I agree, I agree. But that's why we in here we do invited testimony as well as and on the house floor we do back and forth with just us."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"So let me move to this question. Is there a separation of church and state in this country?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"That's an interesting question that has been debated a great deal. But what I'm going to say to you is I'm going to quote some of our earliest forefathers. Do you think that our forefathers when they wrote these words were thinking about a separation? 'The unanimous declaration of the 13 United States of America. When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands that have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth the separation and equal station to which the laws of nature and then and nature's God entitled them. A decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inaliable rights.' Government was not made for man. It was made by God for man. And that's what our forefathers understood in a way that we would love for our school children to understand that we aren't government. That God gave us the rights and the privilege of governing and I love that."
[Lady]:
"Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry, but can we just have people in the audience be respectful of the people that are speaking and not ridicule whoever whatever side they are on it? I know I'm getting cranky at four, but that's just really uncalled for."
Mr. Chairman [man]:
"I, absolutely we need to maintain decorum in here and and give people the respect that they deserve. We have a conversation going on here. You'll get to have your say here shortly."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"And may I add one more thing to your question?"
[Man]:
"Mr. Chairman, I'd like to just jump in and say I have not seen any breach of decorum. We're asking questions of the."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Yea. It wasn't y'all, it wasnt us."
[Man]:
"Oh, ok, sorry. I thought you were asking questions about the questions that are being asked by mister Talarico."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Can I add one more thing about that? And my source and my source is Colonial Williamsburg. Did you know that the Scottish immigrant and Philadelphia publisher Robert Aken who became the official printer for Congress during the war produced America's first English language New Testament in January of 1781. He petitioned Congress to authorize the production of the King James Bible. So it was and it was guess what and George Washington commended him for it the following year. So that those are our very very earliest our very earliest Congress not only didn't espouse what you just said but they actually were the ones that said we need to authorize a production of the Bible with our with our printer. So, it's kind of interesting that I know what you're talking about is from a letter, but this is actually from the congressional record."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"And I wish we weren't talking about this bill at 4:00 a.m. for all kinds of reasons. I know. And I know tempers are flaring and passions are high. So, I just want to make sure I want to give you a chance to talk, but I also just want to make sure that that I'm getting an answer to my question. Is there a separation of church and state?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I know, me too, me too. Did our, did those that that first Congress that earliest Congress when they authorized the production of a complete King James Bible, was that a separation of church and state?"
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I'm just asking you a simple question."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I know, I think I think that you're, I think I've answered it because I think our forefathers made it clear that this was foundational to them and important to them."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Okay. Do you know who coined the term separation of church and state? Who is that?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I do. I believe it was Jefferson."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Thomas Jefferson. Yeah."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Yes. We have lots of quotes from Thomas Jefferson that are that are separate from that. And that was a that was a debate that that believe it or not Baptist and others were having at the time and and as a Baptist I love that. But I'm just I just think that that is a letter is very different than the congressional record that I just mentioned to you."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, so a few things. My granddad was a Baptist preacher. And so I agree. I love Baptists. And Baptists historically, as you as you know better than I do, have historically defended the separation of church and state, not just for the benefit of the state, but for the benefit of the church because when the when the government starts to decide matters of faith, that becomes really dangerous for for all of us. But I wanted to to drill down on this this separation of church and state because Thomas Jefferson in that letter was referring to the first amendment of the constitution, the establishment clause and the free exercise clause which clearly create a separation of church and state. And so I just wanted to make sure that that is something."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"So you're think saying a letter created that instead of the congressional record that created a printing of the Bible?"
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"No, no, no, no, no, no. No, referring, no, no, no. In the letter he's referring to the first amendment of the constitution."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"And and I completely I'm 100% in favor of the constitution which also refers to our Creator and and those those men and those those our forefathers that that swore before a Creator that they were putting their life and liberty at risk and they depended on him. I mean they're you look at George Washington's writings and his words they are infused with Scripture. He certainly didn't separate out his Christianity from his government service."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, so actually we've covered Thomas Jefferson. George Washington during his administration we had the treaty of Tripoli which was ratified unanimously by the US Senate and then signed later by John Adams also a founding father and that treaty said the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. Do you disagree with President Washington or President Adams?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I don't know that you're quoting them correctly. Again, I have some scholars here that can better answer your specific questions, and I am not that person."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Okay, okay. I'll move on from that."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Thank you."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"So ultimately, this this bill is weighing in on debates over religious tradition because different Christian denominations and the Jewish tradition have different variations of the Ten Commandments."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Yeah, like I said, there's there's at least I think there's 900 versions in English alone."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"So the Jewish version of the ten commandments is different from the Catholic version which is different from the King James version which is different from the Lutheran version. Do you think it's appropriate for politicians like us, government officials like us to decide which version of the Ten Commandments is the correct one to be displayed in every Texas classroom?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"We we decided it based on the Supreme Court decision."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"So, do you think judges should be making decisions about our faith instead of clergy and pastors?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I don't believe that's at all what that court decision was based on. I think it was based on the fact that they affirmed the fact that Texas should and can have a monument on its grounds with these words on it and those are the words that we're going to put into classrooms."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I think what I'm trying to say is as believers, we should be very worried when judges are telling Catholics they got it wrong or telling Lutherans they got it wrong."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Judges didnt, that was the state of, somebody tried tried to tell the state of Texas we had to take it out and what we did was say we fought back and the Supreme Court agreed with us as the citizens of the state of Texas. I think you're misconstring what I what that the court decision affirmed what we did as a state, not not told us what to do as a state."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"What I'm trying to do is point out that history shows us that there's a lot of danger when we let the state control or decide religious teachings. Because once the government can start dictating something like the true text of the ten commandments, what is to stop the government from dictating the true meaning of the gospel or the true meaning of the sacraments? I think this should be flashing red lights to people of faith, the cross traditions."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I completely disagree with you in every possible way I can that our classrooms are crying out for moral guidance and ideas that are that we put others first and we think of others and that we treat others kindly and that we respect authority. I think that in all due respect, I think that you're absolutely incorrect in that."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"You argue the Ten Commandments is foundational to our country's founding. But there are obviously many documents that are significantly influential in our country's founding including the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta and of course the most foundational document, the Constitution of the United States. Do you think the Constitutional is the Constitution is foundational to our country?"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I do. I believe all of those are foundational to and I and I've loved visiting them in the archives in Washington DC."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I guess what I'm trying to figure out if that's the most foundational document, why doesn't your bill mandate that the Constitution be posted in every classroom."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Well, if you want to carry that bill, you can. I'm carrying the bill that I chose to carry."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well. Yeah. And I'm not interested in micromanaging what posters are put up in classrooms, which is why I would never carry a bill like this. But I'm asking why, since you are in the business of deciding what posters are up in a classroom, which ones aren't, why is the Constitution not taking that prime spot because it's the most foundational document."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I'm so tired. I'm just in a brain fog..."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"...I ll move on. Yes, I understand. Let me just this is I'll wrap up with this. Texas public schools serve a lot of Christian students, right? It served me when I was growing up. It serves a lot of students who are Christian. But our schools also serve students of other faith backgrounds, right? Muslim students, Hindu students, Buddhist students, Sikh students, atheist students. Correct. It's a diverse state, diverse student population. How do you think it makes a Hindu student feel to have a poster in every classroom that says, 'Thou shalt not worship any god before me.'"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I don't know. I haven't asked one. Have you?"
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I have actually. And actually"
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"But again, you know, they're here and they're Americans. I assume they're Americans now. And I think that they would find it interesting to see what was important and foundational to our forefathers that made this nation a place that they wanted to come and live and raise a family and be part of it. And I really think that you're taking offense that someone wouldn't take from a historical perspective."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, again, we established that our founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I did not establish that. I absolutely did not establish that."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Historical fact established that."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I disagree with that."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"But I think what we heard earlier in this hearing actually in a separate bill some about Muslim students that are being bullied in Texas public schools. We've obviously heard of Jewish students being bullied."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"We really need the Ten Commandments in there on how to treat others kindly."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, and I think the concern is that it's hard to be different as a kid. It's hard to be different anywhere at any age, but particularly for a kid."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Every kid's different from every other kid. Let's be honest."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Sure. But I think being in a country that's predominantly Christian, Christian is the dominant religion in the United States and in Texas. And so to not be a Christian, this is not something I would understand because I grew up as a Christian, but I know that my Jewish friends or Hindu friends or Muslim friends, they certainly felt left out in that regard. And I worry now that politicians are forcing every teacher to post this poster, maybe against their will of the Ten Commandments, that will make those students feel even more left out. Or will make those students."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Maybe it would make them curious about what made our forefathers tick. Maybe it will help them wonder, how can I treat others better? Maybe it will help them ask their parents questions on why should I be under your authority? Maybe we can take that tact with it instead of the negative tact that you're taking with it."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, again, I think if we wanted them to know about our founding of our country, we could post the constitution."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I think those things were foundational to those men that that wrote those words."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I as a Christian myself, I consider Hindu students, Jewish students, Muslim students, atheist students to be my neighbor."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"Absolutely."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"And we as Christians are called to love them as ourselves. And I think forcing one religious tradition down their throats is not love."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I contend it's not a religious tradition. I contend it is foundational again to our judicial and educational system. And it would be to their enlightenment to understand what made our forefathers tick."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"And the last thing I'll say because I know the hour is late and we could talk about this all day. And this is not necessarily a commentary on your motivations for this bill or even Senator King. I know you're carrying this bill for the Senate."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I have the exact same version as a House bill."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"But I think these bills in general that are trying to bring a certain religious tradition into the public square in a more prominent way. I get the sense that they're coming from a place of fear that we're worried people aren't coming to our churches like they used to. And so now we're going to force schools to put up a poster because maybe that'll help. And I want to say I feel that fear too because I see a lot of gray hair at my church. And I worry about the future of my church and a lot of churches in our community, but I firmly and passionately believe that this is not the way to bring people back to church."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"So, I just I don't think that that is not the purpose of this in one, in any way. I can't, I do want to point out one thing to you, though, that I just learned about. Did you know that we have faith-based prisons that prisoners can choose here in Texas? And did you know that the recidivism rate in a in a regular prison is 68%. But the recidivism rate in a faith-based prison is 8%. I don't see that as a bad thing. Why do we do it when they're in the trouble end of the pool and not when they're young? And understand that you can treat others well and you can not steal and not kill and not lie and that's a good thing."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"So this, so based on that analogy, this is a faith-based proposal for schools."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"No, not at all. I just wanted to explain that, that there's an outcome there that's possible with understanding where our forefathers came from and what their motivation was and what was important to them. And I think that I think that we are better off for that."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I think represent Noble the same thing we saw with Representative Bryant's questioning is that there's a switching back and forth of saying this is historical and then but then through your comments the religion comes through, right? When you were talking to represent Brian is about."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I can't be less than I am so I'm sorry about that, and it's; and I actually I don't, I'm not sorry about that."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Sure, no, no, no; don't apologize. Yeah, I don't want you to be sorry about that, I'm just saying I think the purposes of the bill are less clear in some of the answers because then you use the example of a faith-based prison program to compare it to a school and then we ask if it's faith faith-based and you say no, it's history. So I that's where I think the concern comes that the motivations for this are not historical but are religious and that's I think important."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"That's fair. Well, I will I will say that I don't think anyone that adheres to respecting others and treating others well, I think we're all better off as a society with those being the norm and not the exception."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I completely agree."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"And so that's where that's where you get confused about about what I'm saying."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, I think."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I don't think that there's any negative to understanding that historical and educational and judicial foundation that we have."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"I think what I'm saying is that encouraging students, teaching students how to treat others with kindness and respect can be done in a public school setting without a sectarian document. And the ten commandments are from a particular tradition. They're from the Jewish tradition, also the Christian tradition. And that's why I asked about the Hindu student because it's not from their tradition. They Hindus certainly believe in treating others with respect and loving their neighbors. But it is not good for the sectarian document."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"And as far as I know, none of our founding fathers were Hindu. I don't know. There might have been. I just don't know of any."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, most of our founding fathers were deists and they we would not recognize them as traditional Christians, but."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I disagree with that completely from the writings. I disagree with that completely from the writings."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Yeah. I don't know if these things are things that are up for debate but I do want to close out what I was saying which is that I hear from young people Gen Z my fellow millennials all the time who really do long for genuine faith communities but they see modern religion as performative. They see religious leaders who are all about power. All about being better than others. And my worry is that by leveraging our power as legislators to elevate one religion over the rest, especially in front of our children, that that's the kind of stuff that gives religion a bad name. And in this country, it's what gives Christianity a bad name."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I find your."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"And that and so my I just want I'm just going to close out because I know the time is running shortly, but I think for those whose goal is with this bill to create a new generation of Christians, I think it will actually have the opposite effect. And I worry that these kinds of bills will actually create a new generation of atheists who think our religion is more about power than love. And that's my primary concern with this bill. So."
Rep. Noble [woman]:
"I think you're impugning my motivations in a way that's very offensive to me and I'd rather you didn't."
Rep. Talarico [man]:
"Well, I thank you for having this conversation with me. I very much worry what this bill will do to our constitution, to our students, and to the faith that we both share. Thank you, Mr. Chairman."
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